More things to ignore

[Alteredbhoy]

So a judge has found that Donald Trump's business empire was founded upon fraudulent over valuation of his assets. But clearly this doesn't mean he's unfit for office.

After all he defrauded the banks, so where are the real victims?

And doesn't every billionaire businessman do it?

It's not like he's been adjudged to have raped anyone. Oh hang on.

No, but nobody is saying he acted against the State are they. It's not like he's being tried for offences under the espionage act, or for seeking to over turn an election result that he didn't like. 

Oh hang on.

[dappi]

2 hours ago, Alteredbhoy said:

So a judge has found that Donald Trump's business empire was founded upon fraudulent over valuation of his assets. But clearly this doesn't mean he's unfit for office.

After all he defrauded the banks, so where are the real victims?

And doesn't every billionaire businessman do it?

It's not like he's been adjudged to have raped anyone. Oh hang on.

No, but nobody is saying he acted against the State are they. It's not like he's being tried for offences under the espionage act, or for seeking to over turn an election result that he didn't like. 

Oh hang on.

I have lost count of his felonies and indictments, even though they are well documented and evidenced.

Yet some unusual people continue to adore him and think he will make a fine president yet again. Anyway he has a fine mentor in Putin.

[rowlf]

2 hours ago, Alteredbhoy said:

So a judge has found that Donald Trump's business empire was founded upon fraudulent over valuation of his assets. But clearly this doesn't mean he's unfit for office.

After all he defrauded the banks, so where are the real victims?

And doesn't every billionaire businessman do it?

It's not like he's been adjudged to have raped anyone. Oh hang on.

No, but nobody is saying he acted against the State are they. It's not like he's being tried for offences under the espionage act, or for seeking to over turn an election result that he didn't like. 

Oh hang on.

Huh? I can believe you would say these types of things. But dappi has always been as steady as a rock in his/her pragmatic values.

And this is the world you want to leave for your children?

[Alteredbhoy]

4 minutes ago, rowlf said:

Huh? I can believe you would say these types of things. But dappi has always been as steady as a rock in his/her pragmatic values.

And this is the world you want to leave for your children?

The world I want to leave for my grandchildren and children is not one that is led by a rapist and fraudster. Is that the world you want?

[rowlf]

2 minutes ago, Alteredbhoy said:

The world I want to leave for my grandchildren and children is not one that is led by a rapist and fraudster. Is that the world you want?

But he is not the one leading this world. If you haven't noticed, the lifelong experienced, educated, honest, forthright, truthful leader of the free world has been elected to power by the constituents of the US for almost 3 years now. And we're smokin'!

[Alteredbhoy]

6 minutes ago, rowlf said:

But he is not the one leading this world. If you haven't noticed, the lifelong experienced, educated, honest, forthright, truthful leader of the free world has been elected to power by the constituents of the US for almost 3 years now. And we're smokin'!

Don't be obtuse.

Trump is running for POTUS. You will doubtless vote for him to become POTUS. That is despite US Judges adjudicating him to be a rapist and a fraudster.

And you claim to want to defend the rights of women. But only when it suits you.

[helen]

Why do I never get to vote in this “leader of the free world” contest?

[nylon10]

I do sometimes think we should let other countries get on with electing who they want to elect. 

I truly believe in this day and age of polarising populist politics. All it does is make each side  get more entrenched on there views. Mark my words neither Trump or Biden are good candidates to be POTUS both have faults. But that are the two that are likely to be going for the job again.

Hell the Uk for the past 100 years since universal suffrage has had half the population hate who won and half love who got in. Some people would have Blair tried as a war criminal and Thatcher to go the same fate as Cromwell. 

 

 

[rowlf]

37 minutes ago, helen said:

Why do I never get to vote in this “leader of the free world” contest?

It may be cos you're a virtual member. No matter where or what you were born.

[rowlf]

15 minutes ago, nylon10 said:

I do sometimes think we should let other countries get on with electing who they want to elect. 

I truly believe in this day and age of polarising populist politics. All it does is make each side  get more entrenched on there views. Mark my words neither Trump or Biden are good candidates to be POTUS both have faults. But that are the two that are likely to be going for the job again.

Hell the Uk for the past 100 years since universal suffrage has had half the population hate who won and half love who got in. Some people would have Blair tried as a war criminal and Thatcher to go the same fate as Cromwell. 

It would be nice to get on with other countries getting on with who they wanted to elect. But there are problems with doing this. One thing is there are leaders not elected which could do us harm. Another is, there are countries in which the elections are corrupt. Such as the 2020 US election. I know, but I'm really starting to believe that it happened.

I believe we should look at the newly constructed BRITS org. There are no really good reasons for those countries to be under the same umbrella.

After saying all this, I believe that we've always had these close elections because the candidates seem to shift in one direction or the other in the subsequent elections to regain those votes they had lost in the previous election. This is still probably true to this day. However, the entire platforms of both political parties, in the US, have been shifting to the left. It's unmistakable and irreversible. And no one seems to acknowledge what the ramifications of this will be.

And please don't ask me why I think this is, you tell me what you think I'm saying.... if I'm saying anything at all.

[Alteredbhoy]

58 minutes ago, rowlf said:

It would be nice to get on with other countries getting on with who they wanted to elect. But there are problems with doing this. One thing is there are leaders not elected which could do us harm. Another is, there are countries in which the elections are corrupt. Such as the 2020 US election. I know, but I'm really starting to believe that it happened.

Of course you believe it.

William Barr as AG under Trump undertook an investigation and found no evidence. Trump took it to the Courts, which determined there was no evidence. Fox had to pay out the best part of a billion dollars because despite having no evidence they reported the fraud and pointed fingers.

You have no evidence, but you believe it happened.

It's idiots like you who are leading the US towards a Civil War.

The only way you can defend your support for a proven rapist and fraudster is to portray him as the victim. 

[Rikki]

Seems he just committed the exact crime Hunter Biden has been indicted for…  buying a weapon while under indictment… tut tut.

No wonder the rest of the world is either laughing or shaking their head at this continued stoopidity.

[Alteredbhoy]

4 hours ago, nylon10 said:

I do sometimes think we should let other countries get on with electing who they want to elect. 

You're right N10. Who are we to criticise? We elected Boris Johnson to be PM.

[helen]

11 minutes ago, Alteredbhoy said:

You're right N10. Who are we to criticise? We elected Boris Johnson to be PM.

We don’t elect Prime Ministers.
 
A lot of people wasted a lot of words trying to make the country and Boris Johnson understand that when he thought he couldn’t be removed.
A lot of Americans think their president is the ‘leader of the free world’. We didn’t elect him either.

A lot of people need civics lessons.

[Alteredbhoy]

42 minutes ago, helen said:

We don’t elect Prime Ministers.
 
A lot of people wasted a lot of words trying to make the country and Boris Johnson understand that when he thought he couldn’t be removed.

That's semantics.

It's the same as rowlf saying that America isn't a democracy because they elect their electoral college who elect the President.

We have an election to elect representatives who determine which party forms a Government and which leader will be PM.

I can't imagine that there are many people who vote for a MP from one party while hoping that a MP from another party becomes PM.

[Alteredbhoy]

46 minutes ago, helen said:

We don’t elect Prime Ministers.
 
A lot of people wasted a lot of words trying to make the country and Boris Johnson understand that when he thought he couldn’t be removed.
A lot of Americans think their president is the ‘leader of the free world’. We didn’t elect him either.

A lot of people need civics lessons.

Actually forget my last response. I don't suppose many SNP voters actually expect or want a SNP PM.

[c_cubed51]

1 hour ago, helen said:

We don’t elect Prime Ministers.
 

I disagree.

Those of us who have taken civics lessons understand full well that in countries such as the UK and NZ, where the leader of the victorious party will automatically become PM, when we cast our vote (whether it be for an electorate member or a party vote), if we vote for the member or the party which eventually wins the election, we have voted for the leader of that party and are content to have that person as PM.

We may rue our choice later, but at the time, what I have stated holds true.

When the UK voted the Tories, led by Boris Johnson, into power back in 2019, they did so because the overwhelming majority of the voting public were sick and tired of the way Brexit was being dragged out by Theresa May and her cabinet, almost all of whom did not have their hearts set on completing the job. Most, if not all of them, had voted to "remain' in the EU. BJ's promise the "get Brexit done", a promise he kept, remember, resonated with the masses, including me, at the time.

[c_cubed51]

3 hours ago, Rikki said:

Seems he just committed the exact crime Hunter Biden has been indicted for…  buying a weapon while under indictment… tut tut.

No wonder the rest of the world is either laughing or shaking their head at this continued stoopidity.

I wonder if Mr Trump will come to rue the fact that Hunter Biden's plea deal was not accepted by the judge?

[helen]

2 hours ago, Alteredbhoy said:

That's semantics.

It's the same as rowlf saying that America isn't a democracy because they elect their electoral college who elect the President.

We have an election to elect representatives who determine which party forms a Government and which leader will be PM.

I can't imagine that there are many people who vote for a MP from one party while hoping that a MP from another party becomes PM.

Yes. I see it now. I think.
So, do we have a President Rishi or just a Prime Minister? President Liz? President Cameron but only Prime Minister May? Was Neville Chamberlain elected, but not Winston Churchill who was only appointed. The difference is not ’semantic’. One would be answerable to parliament, the other only to the people. And when was the last time any of them could claim a popular majority?

Some people say a British Prime Minister has close to absolute power. The only check on that power is their MPs. We cannot elect a Prime Minister and an MP with the same tick, and I have never seen a party leader’s name on my ballot paper. If we really think we are voting for a Prime Minister then Parliament has no legitimacy at all.

Boris Johnson thought he had absolute power when he tried to suspend parliament and govern on his own. He pretended that everyone who had voted Conservative in 2019 had voted for him personally and, therefore, parliament didn’t count. Even if they had he would not have had a majority. The fact that it took private citizens, through the courts, to stop him, because parliament was too under his thumb, should have been enough to frighten us all.

We do not elect Prime Ministers.

[c_cubed51]

3 hours ago, helen said:

We do not elect Prime Ministers.

I take your point that members the ruling party elect a new party leader and PM when the one who was elected by the people leaves office, for one reason or another. Each such PM has no mandate from the electorate to govern.

It is a weakness in the present system, in both the UK and NZ.

There ought to be some sort of constitutional clause making it mandatory for the ruling party to call a general election whenever their elected PM stands down, for whatever reason!

The Tories ought to have been forced to do so when BJ was removed from office. Their rule since then has been a disaster for the country, IMHO.

The same ought to have occurred here, when Jacinda Ardern resigned. 

 

[Alteredbhoy]

7 hours ago, helen said:

Yes. I see it now. I think.
So, do we have a President Rishi or just a Prime Minister? President Liz? President Cameron but only Prime Minister May? Was Neville Chamberlain elected, but not Winston Churchill who was only appointed. The difference is not ’semantic’. One would be answerable to parliament, the other only to the people. And when was the last time any of them could claim a popular majority?

Some people say a British Prime Minister has close to absolute power. The only check on that power is their MPs. We cannot elect a Prime Minister and an MP with the same tick, and I have never seen a party leader’s name on my ballot paper. If we really think we are voting for a Prime Minister then Parliament has no legitimacy at all.

Boris Johnson thought he had absolute power when he tried to suspend parliament and govern on his own. He pretended that everyone who had voted Conservative in 2019 had voted for him personally and, therefore, parliament didn’t count. Even if they had he would not have had a majority. The fact that it took private citizens, through the courts, to stop him, because parliament was too under his thumb, should have been enough to frighten us all.

We do not elect Prime Ministers.

But you also miss the point that our Prime Ministers are the Heads of Government, not the Heads of State, which is why they are Prime Ministers and not Presidents.

Within a functioning Democracy there are three elements, the Legislature, the Executive and the Judiciary. We elect representatives to the Legislature who nominally elect the Executive. In the same way the US elects the Electoral College that elect the President.

The Judiciary acts as a check on the Executive. 

The fact that the PM can change during an electoral cycle based upon the whim of the PM or the ruling party is a flaw in our method of electing officials in my view. But then I suppose there is always the possibility that a Party could win a GE while the Leader fails to get elected. 

[Alteredbhoy]

3 hours ago, c_cubed51 said:

I take your point that members the ruling party elect a new party leader and PM when the one who was elected by the people leaves office, for one reason or another. Each such PM has no mandate from the electorate to govern.

It is a weakness in the present system, in both the UK and NZ.

There ought to be some sort of constitutional clause making it mandatory for the ruling party to call a general election whenever their elected PM stands down, for whatever reason!

The Tories ought to have been forced to do so when BJ was removed from office. Their rule since then has been a disaster for the country, IMHO.

The same ought to have occurred here, when Jacinda Ardern resigned. 

 

I agree to a point and I've said so before, but I feel that in fairness it needs more finesse. The PM should be free to retire without risking the collapse of the Government. We don't want a PM to remain in office contrary to medical advice for the sake of their party.

But the party should not be able to deselect their leader and replace the PM without the electorate having a say, as the Tories have done to the last 4 PMs.

[c_cubed51]

28 minutes ago, Alteredbhoy said:

The fact that the PM can change during an electoral cycle based upon the whim of the PM or the ruling party is a flaw in our method of electing officials in my view. But then I suppose there is always the possibility that a Party could win a GE while the Leader fails to get elected. 

Our Mixed Member Proportional (MMP) system of elections here in NZ covers that possibility. The leader of each party is also number 1 on their list of List MPs. We have two votes. One for an elected member of parliament in our constituency, and a party vote, which goes to a political party.

In the event that the leader of the party with the greatest number of party votes should lose their electorate seat, they will automatically make it into parliament as a List MP. Of course, this means that the person does not have the support of the majority of people in their own electorate.

Since each political party is also responsible for ranking its List MP candidates, this means that too often, politicians who have been rejected by their electorate still get back into parliament, unelected, often with disastrous consequences. It is difficult to get rid of dead wood. The people do not really have complete say in choosing their parliamentarians.

Edited September 28 by c_cubed51

[Rikki]

I suppose we can also ignore the comments about the retiring joint chief of staff, a clear flag to the right wing nut jobs if I ever saw one.

Remember his comments about US soldiers in the Normandy Cemetery “Suckers and Losers” and his comments about John McCain. This is what he thinks about US veterans. Of course he speaks from a wealth of military experience…. Oh no, hang on, he was a “Fortunate Son”… and dodged the draft.

[Alteredbhoy]

I see that one of DJT's co-defendants in the Georgia Election Interference trial has pleaded guilty and agreed to become a witness for the prosecution.

Will it be the first of several?

[c_cubed51]

On 28/09/2023 at 20:10, Alteredbhoy said:

The fact that the PM can change during an electoral cycle based upon the whim of the PM or the ruling party is a flaw in our method of electing officials in my view. But then I suppose there is always the possibility that a Party could win a GE while the Leader fails to get elected. 

Further to this, the only instance I could find of a party remaining in power, while the PM lost his seat, is in Canada, twice.

 In Canada, William Lyon Mackenzie King lost his seat in 1925 and 1945. On both occasions, his party lost their majority but stayed in power and King returned to parliament in a by-election months later so that he could remain Prime Minister.

The cunning man got around that small problem, didn't he?

There are several instances of the incumbent PM losing both their seat and the general election:

1. Authur Balfour (UK - 1906)

2. Arthur Meigan (Canada - 1921 and 1926)

3. Stanley Bruce (Australia - 1929)

4. John Howard (Australia - 2007)

 

[Alteredbhoy]

I was reading yesterday that Trump disclosed to an Australian billionaire after his presidency had ended the number of nuclear missiles on US submarines and how close they could get to Russian submarines without being detected. This was the repeated to numerous others.

This man has no sense of responsibility, just his own vanity.

[rowlf]

2 hours ago, Alteredbhoy said:

I was reading yesterday that Trump disclosed to an Australian billionaire after his presidency had ended the number of nuclear missiles on US submarines and how close they could get to Russian submarines without being detected. This was the repeated to numerous others.

This man has no sense of responsibility, just his own vanity.

I heard it from a friend who, heard it from a friend who, heard that you'll believe anything you want to believe...

Repeat after me. 'I pledge allegiance to the media and for every liberal lie it can come up with.'

[rowlf]

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/fauci-advisor-accused-of-covid-origins-coverup-using-personal-email/ar-AA1hOhbR?ocid=msedgntp&cvid=37f9ed7d96414e1da1d838074c455096&ei=7

[rowlf]

Say it ain't so, Joe!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V3qfcZEevWs

 

[Rikki]

No comments about Trump and his disparaging remarks about US Veterans? 
Is that the chirping of crickets I hear?

No comments about his clearly fraudulent business practices? More crickets.

No comments about the Rep infighting that nearly caused a government shutdown? Even more crickets…

[rowlf]

11 minutes ago, Rikki said:

No comments about Trump and his disparaging remarks about US Veterans? 
Is that the chirping of crickets I hear?

No comments about his clearly fraudulent business practices? More crickets.

No comments about the Rep infighting that nearly caused a government shutdown? Even more crickets…

Show me the money! You and ab always have opinions. Where did you get this info from?

[rowlf]

This is the reality of what is going on in the US. What scares me about our country is who voted for these people to lead our country. And these same people who will vote for them again. Read these news briefs. and let's discuss the direction in which our country is heading.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ft1_YCupql4

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=knYxFOpKxQQ

 

[rowlf]

Fauci is a crook and the public just submit to weakness.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/fauci-advisor-accused-of-covid-origins-coverup-using-personal-email/ar-AA1hOhbR?ocid=msedgntp&cvid=37f9ed7d96414e1da1d838074c455096&ei=7

[rowlf]

We live in a world where anything you want to believe is out there to read. What our education system has done to us for the last few decades is to remove logic from a student's brain and replace it with wishful thinking and factoid.

[Alteredbhoy]

42 minutes ago, rowlf said:

I heard it from a friend who, heard it from a friend who, heard that you'll believe anything you want to believe...

Repeat after me. 'I pledge allegiance to the media and for every liberal lie it can come up with.'

Is that your reason to ignore? Aside from the fact that you posted on here proof of Biden's corruption being a report by a Republican politician of a report provided to him by an FBI informant that indicated that another agent had been told by a source that they had overheard someone claiming to have been told that a further party had they had a discussion with Biden, which seems pretty much similar to your claim.

I think the fact that the Australian is due to testify against Trump in his trial suggests it is first hand evidence, not sixth 

But it won't stop you ignoring the clear danger your egotistical and loose lipped crush is.

[Alteredbhoy]

4 minutes ago, rowlf said:

We live in a world where anything you want to believe is out there to read. What our education system has done to us for the last few decades is to remove logic from a student's brain and replace it with wishful thinking and factoid.

Yes you believe Paul Pelosi kidnapped a male sex worker. You believe Obama was complicit in the murder of his chef. You believe 6th January was a peaceful protest. You believe that despite being adjudged to the contrary by a judge in Court that Trump is not a sexual predator.

All things you believe in direct contradiction of substantial evidence to the contrary.

 

[Alteredbhoy]

rowlf and three conspiracy theorists walk into a bar.

That can't be a coincidence.

[rowlf]

23 minutes ago, Alteredbhoy said:

Is that your reason to ignore? Aside from the fact that you posted on here proof of Biden's corruption being a report by a Republican politician of a report provided to him by an FBI informant that indicated that another agent had been told by a source that they had overheard someone claiming to have been told that a further party had they had a discussion with Biden, which seems pretty much similar to your claim.

I think the fact that the Australian is due to testify against Trump in his trial suggests it is first hand evidence, not sixth 

But it won't stop you ignoring the clear danger your egotistical and loose lipped crush is.

What puzzles me is why you guys worry about Trump so much. If he hadn't wanted to run for re-election, the media wouldn't care about him. I wish that he wouldn't run, if nothing more than his own good health. But I can see why he feels he needs to run.

[rowlf]

23 minutes ago, Alteredbhoy said:

Yes you believe Paul Pelosi kidnapped a male sex worker. You believe Obama was complicit in the murder of his chef. You believe 6th January was a peaceful protest. You believe that despite being adjudged to the contrary by a judge in Court that Trump is not a sexual predator.

All things you believe in direct contradiction of substantial evidence to the contrary.

You can certainly take a fable and run with it. You better quit worrying about Pelosi so much. It causes tooth decay.