helen

Decisions, decisions.

86 posts in this topic

On ‎01‎/‎02‎/‎2018 at 11:39 AM, explorer1954 said:

 ‘we’ have got to take rights away from EU citizens next year because ‘that is what the British people voted for’ . This is a totally shameful statement.

 

May I ask why you say that? All through the referendum and afterwards, one of the key points in the whole business was the number of immigrants coming into this country and seemingly taking over, both by taking benefits and religion.

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On 2/3/2018 at 10:13 AM, Alteredbhoy said:

The Brexiteers suggesting that the Civil Service is acting as a block to Government Policy is outrageous and is akin to Donald Trump's blaming everyone else for everything.  It is a very slippery slope.

The blame everyone else school of politics is fast becoming the new orthodoxy.

Andrew Turnbull, former head of the civil service said that civil servants had become the victims of “pre-emptive scapegoating” by Brexiteers who feared they were losing the argument.

Yesterday Jacob Rees-Mogg repeated his claim that the Treasury was “fiddling the figures” to emphasise the downside of a hard Brexit. He thinks the Treasury forecasts must be wrong because the Treasury always gets it wrong. He offered no evidence, it is just what he wants to believe.  

However our childish fantasy eventually turns out, the hard Brexiteers will be in the clear, but there will be 17.4 million deluded voters looking for someone else to blame.

Never trust a patriot.

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47 minutes ago, helen said:

He offered no evidence, it is just what he wants to believe.  

 

 

But isn't that exactly what you and a lot of other know-alls do on here? You read something on Wikki or read some rag and take that on board as your own opinion. You then deride all other posters if they offer an alternative, which is again, their opinion.

I've said this many times before but it's worth saying again. If you aren't satisfied with this country, it's ruling monarch, it's government and politicians, it's monetary system, it's NHS and all the rest, then why the hell are you still living here? For goodness sake bugger off and take your moans as far away as possible.

Edited by luckyme

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I don't know why the young are so fond of the EU, the only thing I can think of is the easy travel. Most of our young get undercut by foreign workers, they have no pensions and have to take part time jobs. None of them get trained as it is cheaper to hire a ready trained person from the EU in construction and health to name a few. Yes I am over 60, and have traveled extensively in Europe, because of my job and cannot understand how the French and Germans disobey all the rules we have to abide by (try finding a fire escape in a bar in Koln). I have watched the demise of our industry, some of it would have gone anyway, but some was moved by the offer of a subsidy in Europe. Half the issue with nurses is that up to now you could recruit trained nurses from Europe, so why offer a bursary for them to train, same with construction. We cannot subsidise failing industries, but the Germany's and French do it. Currently, if we want to get anything changed in the EU we need to get 27 members to agree, have you ever tried to get 10 people to agree on a subject. If we stay in we will eventually have to accept the EURO, which will mean even more austerity. The reason Corbyn wants out, is that the things he wants to do, he cannot while we are in the EU. He is at the moment playing to an audience that he thinks will vote him in.

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3 hours ago, ruby said:

I don't know why the young are so fond of the EU, the only thing I can think of is the easy travel. Most of our young get undercut by foreign workers, they have no pensions and have to take part time jobs. None of them get trained as it is cheaper to hire a ready trained person from the EU in construction and health to name a few. Yes I am over 60, and have traveled extensively in Europe, because of my job and cannot understand how the French and Germans disobey all the rules we have to abide by (try finding a fire escape in a bar in Koln). I have watched the demise of our industry, some of it would have gone anyway, but some was moved by the offer of a subsidy in Europe. Half the issue with nurses is that up to now you could recruit trained nurses from Europe, so why offer a bursary for them to train, same with construction. We cannot subsidise failing industries, but the Germany's and French do it. Currently, if we want to get anything changed in the EU we need to get 27 members to agree, have you ever tried to get 10 people to agree on a subject. If we stay in we will eventually have to accept the EURO, which will mean even more austerity. The reason Corbyn wants out, is that the things he wants to do, he cannot while we are in the EU. He is at the moment playing to an audience that he thinks will vote him in.

I am in my late 40's.  I was born in the UK and brought up in the UK.  I pay my national insurance taxes and other taxes that I have to pay.  Yet, unlike the majority that are over 60, that voted for brexit I have to pay for my prescription if I go to the Doctor and need medication.  I also have to pay to go to the Dentist as I do not qualify to be an NHS patient.   How many of those that voted for Brexit have to pay for Prescriptions and going to the Dentist?   

 

Now, some may say that I am a moaner.  I am not, I just want to be able to use the NHS services when I need too without having to be paying twice over to be able to use them.    

 

With regards to people from the EU working in the NHS, there has not been enough people within the UK wanting to become nurses or doctors to keep up with the demand that has been asked of the NHS to provide so that people in the UK can remain healthy.  Even with the help from Doctors from the EU and other countries within the commonwealth, it has not been able to keep up with the demand, so how does Brexit fill the gap that will be there when those EU Doctors and nurses leave? NHS is already stretched and I know when I am in need to be seeing a Doctor I am lucky if I can get an appointment the same day that I have phoned.   People in the same position either end up phoning 111 or going to A&E if they feel it is an emergency, so the £355 Million a week I think will be necessary to help the NHS to cope, but oops that is no longer going to be available.   

 

It takes 5 to 7 years to train Doctors and Nurses, so those being trained today would not be looking at patients until 2024.   Also, don't forget from the late 1940's onwards, there has been many calls to the Commonwealth nations to send Doctors and Nurses etc... as there was not enough here in the UK.  

 

With regards to the building trade, as per the Auf Wiedersehen Pet program of the 1980's, a good majority of the UK building trade went to work abroad as there was just not the jobs, contracts etc within the UK at that time to keep them employed.  I believe a good many stayed working abroad even when the contracts in the UK started to come a lot more so from the late 1990's onwards.  But like the NHS, there has not been enough UK people trained as apprentices within construction to keep up with demand that is being made within the industry.    This is where at the moment, we can call upon other EU countries to help out, especially where we do not have the specialist knowledge as yet and probably will not have for 5 - 20 years, because we have not had people going into the specialist areas of construction that is required.   

 

On the subject of the UK having to accept the Euro if we remained within the EU, well this is crap I am afraid.  Yes, there would be pressures from the other 27 countries to move to using the EU, but as at the moment there is no saying that is necessary for us to remain.

 

For example you still have Croatia, Bulgaria, Denmark, Hungary, Poland, Romania and Sweden still using their own currencies.  So the UK would not be the only one not to move to the Euro.  I suspect that many of the countries mentioned may move if it is beneficial for their country, but I think that the majority will certainly for the immediate future remain on their own currencies.   

 

The problem is not the EU, it is in the fact that successive UK governments over the last 30 years have said "yes, we will follow those rules" to the EU ministers without thinking about the consequences of following those rules to the country, which is what both the French and German governments have been doing, which is what the UK government needs to learn to do as well.    As I was told as a child growing up, running away from a problem does not resolve it.  You have to face up to the issues you are facing.  To me Brexit, is just the UK government running away being scared to say 'No, hang on a minute, we will not accept this legislation as it is damaging to the people of our country'.   You need to get away from the fact that the EU, is not the Common Market that the UK joined in 1972.  The EU has been given many powers by various UK governments over the years, with the most been given away by Sir John Major when he was Prime Minister in the 1990's.   Only in the UK would someone be given a knighthood, even though he signed a treaty that has over the last 20 years crippled the UK because of the acceptance that it gave of the financial payments to the EU.   Since then any  UK government has paid any amounts to the EU without questioning it or asking what exactly are we paying for in spending this money?           

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3 hours ago, Robbies said:

I am in my late 40's.  I was born in the UK and brought up in the UK.  I pay my national insurance taxes and other taxes that I have to pay.  Yet, unlike the majority that are over 60, that voted for brexit I have to pay for my prescription if I go to the Doctor and need medication.  I also have to pay to go to the Dentist as I do not qualify to be an NHS patient.   How many of those that voted for Brexit have to pay for Prescriptions and going to the Dentist?   

 

Now, some may say that I am a moaner.  I am not, I just want to be able to use the NHS services when I need too without having to be paying twice over to be able to use them.    

 

With regards to people from the EU working in the NHS, there has not been enough people within the UK wanting to become nurses or doctors to keep up with the demand that has been asked of the NHS to provide so that people in the UK can remain healthy.  Even with the help from Doctors from the EU and other countries within the commonwealth, it has not been able to keep up with the demand, so how does Brexit fill the gap that will be there when those EU Doctors and nurses leave? NHS is already stretched and I know when I am in need to be seeing a Doctor I am lucky if I can get an appointment the same day that I have phoned.   People in the same position either end up phoning 111 or going to A&E if they feel it is an emergency, so the £355 Million a week I think will be necessary to help the NHS to cope, but oops that is no longer going to be available.   

 

It takes 5 to 7 years to train Doctors and Nurses, so those being trained today would not be looking at patients until 2024.   Also, don't forget from the late 1940's onwards, there has been many calls to the Commonwealth nations to send Doctors and Nurses etc... as there was not enough here in the UK.  

 

With regards to the building trade, as per the Auf Wiedersehen Pet program of the 1980's, a good majority of the UK building trade went to work abroad as there was just not the jobs, contracts etc within the UK at that time to keep them employed.  I believe a good many stayed working abroad even when the contracts in the UK started to come a lot more so from the late 1990's onwards.  But like the NHS, there has not been enough UK people trained as apprentices within construction to keep up with demand that is being made within the industry.    This is where at the moment, we can call upon other EU countries to help out, especially where we do not have the specialist knowledge as yet and probably will not have for 5 - 20 years, because we have not had people going into the specialist areas of construction that is required.   

 

On the subject of the UK having to accept the Euro if we remained within the EU, well this is crap I am afraid.  Yes, there would be pressures from the other 27 countries to move to using the EU, but as at the moment there is no saying that is necessary for us to remain.

 

For example you still have Croatia, Bulgaria, Denmark, Hungary, Poland, Romania and Sweden still using their own currencies.  So the UK would not be the only one not to move to the Euro.  I suspect that many of the countries mentioned may move if it is beneficial for their country, but I think that the majority will certainly for the immediate future remain on their own currencies.   

 

The problem is not the EU, it is in the fact that successive UK governments over the last 30 years have said "yes, we will follow those rules" to the EU ministers without thinking about the consequences of following those rules to the country, which is what both the French and German governments have been doing, which is what the UK government needs to learn to do as well.    As I was told as a child growing up, running away from a problem does not resolve it.  You have to face up to the issues you are facing.  To me Brexit, is just the UK government running away being scared to say 'No, hang on a minute, we will not accept this legislation as it is damaging to the people of our country'.   You need to get away from the fact that the EU, is not the Common Market that the UK joined in 1972.  The EU has been given many powers by various UK governments over the years, with the most been given away by Sir John Major when he was Prime Minister in the 1990's.   Only in the UK would someone be given a knighthood, even though he signed a treaty that has over the last 20 years crippled the UK because of the acceptance that it gave of the financial payments to the EU.   Since then any  UK government has paid any amounts to the EU without questioning it or asking what exactly are we paying for in spending this money?           

Actually you are right in some of your comments, but you are not telling the complete story. One of the reasons we do not have enough doctors it that the BMA limits the amount that can be trained. In building, yes that did happen, but most of those people must be my age now, and the contracts are not that good now (undercut by the Indians). The building industry, because it is now run using sub contract labour(just look at Carillion), up until recently didn't train any one. If you read what the future of the EU wants, the adoption of the EURO by member states is the next step, lets face it it is a logical step, how can you have an centralised organisation working on different currencies, perhaps not immediately, but in the future. The thing is everyone seems to think it was the over 60s that wanted out, my friend who is nearer 70 than 60 is a staunch remainer, whereas most of my fiends from work favour Brexit, and they are in their 30's to 40's, and are Design Engineers, so you cannot generalise.  I must admit I don't what is wrong with the UK, we seem to like giving everything away, if we invent something really good, we seem to sell it to some foreign investor (look at our electronics industry). Perhaps Napoleon was right, we are a Nation of shopkeepers, but with the Internet even that is going.

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45 minutes ago, ruby said:

Actually you are right in some of your comments, but you are not telling the complete story. One of the reasons we do not have enough doctors it that the BMA limits the amount that can be trained. In building, yes that did happen, but most of those people must be my age now, and the contracts are not that good now (undercut by the Indians). The building industry, because it is now run using sub contract labour(just look at Carillion), up until recently didn't train any one. If you read what the future of the EU wants, the adoption of the EURO by member states is the next step, lets face it it is a logical step, how can you have an centralised organisation working on different currencies, perhaps not immediately, but in the future. The thing is everyone seems to think it was the over 60s that wanted out, my friend who is nearer 70 than 60 is a staunch remainer, whereas most of my fiends from work favour Brexit, and they are in their 30's to 40's, and are Design Engineers, so you cannot generalise.  I must admit I don't what is wrong with the UK, we seem to like giving everything away, if we invent something really good, we seem to sell it to some foreign investor (look at our electronics industry). Perhaps Napoleon was right, we are a Nation of shopkeepers, but with the Internet even that is going.

Like.

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Jacob Rees-Mogg and the rest of the Brexit ultras want us to leave the EU with no deal and then unilaterally have no tariffs on any imports from anywhere in the world.

Patrick Minford one of the few economists who support Brexit and is Rees-Moggs go to economist has said:

"Over time, if we left the EU, it seems likely that we would mostly eliminate manufacturing, leaving mainly industries such as design, marketing and hi-tech,” Minford wrote. “But this shouldn’t scare us"

Well it scares me. 

Most people in the country I would think believe we should invest in high tech industries such as pharmaceuticals, vehicle manufacturing, aviation etc. This is I believe government policy so why is May letting these Brexit ultras rule the cabinet.

Still we will have blue passports so everything will be fine.

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The Government's own analysis of the economic hit to GDP from a 'no deal' Brexit would be 16% to North East England and 12% to Northern Ireland - and still Tory Brextremists agitate for this!  

The biggest hit in case of hard Brexit would be the NE (voted Leave); and the least harmed London (Remain). How ironic

Absolutely crazy for people to still be talking about no deal.

Edited by explorer1954

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Forgive me for another statement of the blindingly obvious, but if the government is only now deciding Brexit policy on:
the Single Market
the Customs Union
the border with N Ireland...

Then the referendum gave them no mandate for their policy and what on earth have they been doing for the last 18 months.

Both the government and official opposition are where it comes to Brexit inept, dysfunctional and useless.

Edited by explorer1954
Typo

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On ‎2‎/‎4‎/‎2018 at 7:55 AM, helen said:

Never trust a patriot.

One can only imagine the stupidity and the arrogance that swims in your brain that would cause you to say such a thing.

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4 hours ago, explorer1954 said:

Forgive me for another statement of the blindingly obvious, but if the government is only now deciding Brexit policy on:
the Single Market
the Customs Union
the border with N Ireland...

Then the referendum gave them no mandate for their policy and what on earth have they been doing for the last 18 months.

Both the government and official opposition are where it comes to Brexit inept, dysfunctional and useless.

The referendum gave carte blanche (is that a bit foreign)? Anyway, it allowed the thirty year warring factions in the Tory party to haggle over our future without the need to ask us again. That’s called taking back control.

The best we can hope for is they all kill each other.

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On 04/02/2018 at 1:40 PM, luckyme said:

But isn't that exactly what you and a lot of other know-alls do on here? You read something on Wikki or read some rag and take that on board as your own opinion. You then deride all other posters if they offer an alternative, which is again, their opinion.

I've said this many times before but it's worth saying again. If you aren't satisfied with this country, it's ruling monarch, it's government and politicians, it's monetary system, it's NHS and all the rest, then why the hell are you still living here? For goodness sake bugger off and take your moans as far away as possible.

He says it like it is. Clear off if you aint satisfied,

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Well, well, well

It looks like the message to clear off is finally getting through.

The Japanese ambassador in Downing Street was unusually candid after a meeting with the PM and Nissan, Toyota, Honda etc:


“If there’s no profitability of continuing operations in UK no private company can continue operations...simple as that... this is for high stakes and all of us need to keep that in mind.”

also... “Japanese companies have come to UK by invitation by solicitation [to access Europe] therefore it is expected that they will have free access”

In other words unless they get free access to Europe they are gone taking with them many 10's of thousands if not 100's of thousand jobs and reducing the UK car industry to a shadow of itself.

So the message is getting through right enough. Maybe not how it was meant though.

Edited by explorer1954

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30 minutes ago, explorer1954 said:

Well, well, well

It looks like the message to clear off is finally getting through.

The Japanese ambassador in Downing Street was unusually candid after a meeting with the PM and Nissan, Toyota, Honda etc:


“If there’s no profitability of continuing operations in UK no private company can continue operations...simple as that... this is for high stakes and all of us need to keep that in mind.”

also... “Japanese companies have come to UK by invitation by solicitation [to access Europe] therefore it is expected that they will have free access”

In other words unless they get free access to Europe they are gone taking with them many 10's of thousands if not 100's of thousand jobs and reducing the UK car industry to a shadow of itself.

So the message is getting through right enough. Maybe not how it was meant though.

Excuse my ignorance. But are you saying you have nothing to offer these people?

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1 hour ago, rowlf said:

Excuse my ignorance. But are you saying you have nothing to offer these people?

Have you ever owned an English car Rowlf?

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40 minutes ago, Trinity said:

Have you ever owned an English car Rowlf?

Yep, I owned a '60 Triumph TR3. It would be worth a fortune now.:58674be973f66_EmojiSmiley-20:

And a '59 English Ford Prefect.

I loved both cars. But I see what you're getting at. My brother owned an Austin Healy 3000. He always wanted to race me in my TR3. Yeah, right!

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3 hours ago, rowlf said:

Yep, I owned a '60 Triumph TR3. It would be worth a fortune now.:58674be973f66_EmojiSmiley-20:

And a '59 English Ford Prefect.

I loved both cars. But I see what you're getting at. My brother owned an Austin Healy 3000. He always wanted to race me in my TR3. Yeah, right!

But in answer to your previous question Rowlf, there is no jobs that can be offered to the 100's of thousands if the Japanese car companies pull out of the UK and we will be back to the many millions of people being unemployed as we were back in the 1980's when Margaret Thatcher was Prime Minister who is an idol of the current Prime Minister Theresa May.   

 

It has been said by many that we could end up having a higher percentage rate of unemployed than the US due to the Brexit and the changes that will happen.   I suspect just like the days of British Leyland where the motor industry here in the UK began to get run down, I suspect that we will see the same with many of the motor companies that left in this country and they will move abroad in time.  So you may end up with the likes of Aston Martin, Jaguar Land Rover, Lotus and many others just building their cars in India and China with no manufacturing base left here in the UK.    

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7 hours ago, rowlf said:

Excuse my ignorance. But are you saying you have nothing to offer these people?

I am not saying anything the quoted comments come from the Japanese ambassador.

The issue revolves around globalised manufacturing which is incredibly complex and competitive. I believe something like 80% of the output of the plants goes for export to Europe. So tariffs or customs delays will render these plants non competitive and with over capacity in the industry they will relocate production. Its pretty simple really. 

 

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Strange then that the whole of the north east , especially Sunderland voted for brexit .I would assume many who work at the Nissan plant are now having sleepless nights

 

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28 minutes ago, magnadet said:

Strange then that the whole of the north east , especially Sunderland voted for brexit .I would assume many who work at the Nissan plant are now having sleepless nights

 

I have no idea if they are having sleepless nights but I would suggest that worry would not be irrational.

The Governments own figures show this will be the most adversley affected part of the UK from any form of Brexit. 

This in large part is due to the success of the region exporting to Europe. It also receives a significant chunk of the EU aid that comes to the UK.

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After all this doom and gloom, has anyone seen what the boss of the Bank of England has to say about a 'hard' Brexit?

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8 hours ago, Robbies said:

But in answer to your previous question Rowlf, there is no jobs that can be offered to the 100's of thousands if the Japanese car companies pull out of the UK and we will be back to the many millions of people being unemployed as we were back in the 1980's when Margaret Thatcher was Prime Minister who is an idol of the current Prime Minister Theresa May.   

It has been said by many that we could end up having a higher percentage rate of unemployed than the US due to the Brexit and the changes that will happen.   I suspect just like the days of British Leyland where the motor industry here in the UK began to get run down, I suspect that we will see the same with many of the motor companies that left in this country and they will move abroad in time.  So you may end up with the likes of Aston Martin, Jaguar Land Rover, Lotus and many others just building their cars in India and China with no manufacturing base left here in the UK.    

It certainly is a sad state of affairs. If this is an accurate scenario, why couldn't the leaders of your country accurately articulate the fallout of this Brexit to the masses? Or is it so complex that a person could conceive a number of paths that Brexit would take? Or do the people just hear what they want to believe? In this day and age, I really believe that the electorate is more ignorant of the reality of their votes than I've ever seen in my lifetime. This goes for both of our countries. Also, it seems as though the voters of our respective country's would rather blame our leaders than ourselves who ultimately made them our leaders.

For both of our countries, I feel there is no easy way out. I feel that the UK is a welfare state, and the US is quickly becoming one. I understand the compassion behind the principles of protecting the citizens. We all want a more comfortable existence, and that's why we steadily vote toward the welfare state. It is becoming our undoing. But it will never work, because the reality is that too many will abuse the system and it will be overloaded. More taxes on the country only increase the burden and destroys the equilibrium of checks and balances.

In saying this, it's difficult, nay impossible to overcome this dependency on the gov, once you're 'caught'.

I still continue to believe that the EU turned welfare states into a welfare continent.

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2 minutes ago, rowlf said:

It certainly is a sad state of affairs. If this is an accurate scenario, why couldn't the leaders of your country accurately articulate the fallout of this Brexit to the masses? Or is it so complex that a person could conceive a number of paths that Brexit would take? Or do the people just hear what they want to believe? In this day and age, I really believe that the electorate is more ignorant of the reality of their votes than I've ever seen in my lifetime. This goes for both of our countries. Also, it seems as though the voters of our respective country's would rather blame our leaders than ourselves who ultimately made them our leaders.

For both of our countries, I feel there is no easy way out. I feel that the UK is a welfare state, and the US is quickly becoming one. I understand the compassion behind the principles of protecting the citizens. We all want a more comfortable existence, and that's why we steadily vote toward the welfare state. It is becoming our undoing. But it will never work, because the reality is that too many will abuse the system and it will be overloaded. More taxes on the country only increase the burden and destroys the equilibrium of checks and balances.

In saying this, it's difficult, nay impossible to overcome this dependency on the gov, once you're 'caught'.

I still continue to believe that the EU turned welfare states into a welfare continent.

Because it was described as "fake news" project fear etc. Does that sound familiar to you?

So much about Brexit is to do with resolving the split within the Tory party and not Europe.

Explain how the EU made Europe a welfare continent if you can.

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2 minutes ago, explorer1954 said:

Because it was described as "fake news" project fear etc. Does that sound familiar to you?

So much about Brexit is to do with resolving the split within the Tory party and not Europe.

Explain how the EU made Europe a welfare continent if you can.

Fake news or not, it's the people's responsibility ascertain the truth. Fake news does exist. More now than ever before.

Look, I don't pretend to know about all the issues with the EU. Mostly what I read on here. My main issue with it is all the social justice rules. And the attempt to make for a 'level playing field' in the diverse countries included in the union.

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9 minutes ago, rowlf said:

Fake news or not, it's the people's responsibility ascertain the truth. Fake news does exist. More now than ever before.

Look, I don't pretend to know about all the issues with the EU. Mostly what I read on here. My main issue with it is all the social justice rules. And the attempt to make for a 'level playing field' in the diverse countries included in the union.

It comes back to the big problem of Brexit: which is that the governing party wants it very badly in theory but recoils from it in practice, and prefers to live in a series of fantasies. They keep promising things that are undeliverable or kicking the can down the road or both. This is why May and her government of halfwits haven't managed to agree what they actually want from Brexit.

None of this was unforseen you will have seen on here people like me saying that the EU hold all the cards in this negotiation, that they are not going to change the rules just because the UK is leaving. Those of us who said those things have been told to clear off, or told that because of UK exceptionalism the EU will roll over. It was never going to happen in the way those in favour of Brexit suggested

The principal backers of Brexit seek to benefit either financially or personally from Brexit and have lied consistently about the EU.

They - and unfortunately everyone else who lives in this country - may be on course for a very painful awakening when the Article 50 clocks reaches zero which is coming around rather rapidly.

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5 minutes ago, explorer1954 said:

It comes back to the big problem of Brexit: which is that the governing party wants it very badly in theory but recoils from it in practice, and prefers to live in a series of fantasies. They keep promising things that are undeliverable or kicking the can down the road or both. This is why May and her government of halfwits haven't managed to agree what they actually want from Brexit.

None of this was unforseen you will have seen on here people like me saying that the EU hold all the cards in this negotiation, that they are not going to change the rules just because the UK is leaving. Those of us who said those things have been told to clear off, or told that because of UK exceptionalism the EU will roll over. It was never going to happen in the way those in favour of Brexit suggested

The principal backers of Brexit seek to benefit either financially or personally from Brexit and have lied consistently about the EU.

They - and unfortunately everyone else who lives in this country - may be on course for a very painful awakening when the Article 50 clocks reaches zero which is coming around rather rapidly.

Well, one thing that I noticed is that the Brexiters weren't steadfast in their commitment as to how they voted. Also, the people who voted against did not fall in line with the outcome. What do you expect to achieve when outsiders see the obvious lack of commitment of the British vote. The EU doesn't need to negotiate when it's obvious Brits are in disarray and will settle for crumbs.

Over here in the US, the people who voted for Trump are backing him all the way. The fake news media is committed to destroying this president. But there have been very few, if any losses from his base.

 

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20 minutes ago, rowlf said:

Well, one thing that I noticed is that the Brexiters weren't steadfast in their commitment as to how they voted. Also, the people who voted against did not fall in line with the outcome. What do you expect to achieve when outsiders see the obvious lack of commitment of the British vote. The EU doesn't need to negotiate when it's obvious Brits are in disarray and will settle for crumbs.

Over here in the US, the people who voted for Trump are backing him all the way. The fake news media is committed to destroying this president. But there have been very few, if any losses from his base.

 

Well that's an interesting question.  Do you think people like me should have just said, ok, I will push for Brexit now, even though I think it will be profoundly damaging to my country.

I guess you did that when Obama was elected.

It matters not one jot to the EU if the UK electorate is as one or not. Why, because we voted to leave so why worry about the UK electorate. 

It is a one sided negotiation as we are leaving. Imagine if you were a member of a golf club and said, I am leaving, but I would like you to change the rules so I can carry on using the clubhouse. I think you know what the answer would be.

Me I am carrying on fighting against this madness.

Edited by explorer1954

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I was thinking more about the Brexit supporters. Few if any politicians have changed the side they support. However it looks like some of the electorate are changing their views. As they believe they have been played by the politicians. How many I have no ideas but is the group increasing in size.

The other thing you should never get is that this was a referendum where the result was pretty close and many of the leavers like Farage and Mogg said if it was a close result that went against them they would want a second referendum.

So I want a second referendum. I have no idea who will win but I am going to work hard for the referendum and if it happens campaign hard.

This is possibly slightly distasteful but the majority for Brexit is dying out, literally. So time is on our side.

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2 minutes ago, explorer1954 said:

I was thinking more about the Brexit supporters. Few if any politicians have changed the side they support. However it looks like some of the electorate are changing their views. As they believe they have been played by the politicians. How many I have no ideas but is the group increasing in size.

The other thing you should never get is that this was a referendum where the result was pretty close and many of the leavers like Farage and Mogg said if it was a close result that went against them they would want a second referendum.

So I want a second referendum. I have no idea who will win but I am going to work hard for the referendum and if it happens campaign hard.

This is possibly slightly distasteful but the majority for Brexit is dying out, literally. So time is on our side.

So out with the old and in with the new.......................... Why do you think those 'ol' geezers' don't want, yet another layer of gov?

More importantly, you've just penetrated the crux of the mater. You needn't 'push' for Brexit, but you could accept it. You don't support the will of the majority. And if you don't think the EU doesn't benefit from the Brit's dissension on this Brexit matter, you must live on an alternate planet.

You didn't get what you wanted so you want to try again. If you lose the second referendum, will you try for a third?

And why don't you address the issue of why you can't survive without the EU?

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10 minutes ago, rowlf said:

So out with the old and in with the new.......................... Why do you think those 'ol' geezers' don't want, yet another layer of gov?

More importantly, you've just penetrated the crux of the mater. You needn't 'push' for Brexit, but you could accept it. You don't support the will of the majority. And if you don't think the EU doesn't benefit from the Brit's dissension on this Brexit matter, you must live on an alternate planet.

You didn't get what you wanted so you want to try again. If you lose the second referendum, will you try for a third?

And why don't you address the issue of why you can't survive without the EU?

Like you accepted Obama.

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4 minutes ago, explorer1954 said:

Like you accepted Obama.

Obama was/is a fool. I can't say it any better than that. But I think your post means you can't answer my question.

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Quote.

IF THERE IS A NO DEAL BREXIT, THE POND WILL BE IN A VERY STRONG POSITION.

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Can't wait to be out of EU, let some else dish out the dosh for a change, after all the EU needs us more than we need them as we import far more from them than we export. Yes they can put tarriffs on what we sell but we will just do the same to them so its in their interest no to stick tariffs on our exports

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1 minute ago, trophyintights said:

Can't wait to be out of EU, let some else dish out the dosh for a change, after all the EU needs us more than we need them as we import far more from them than we export. Yes they can put tarriffs on what we sell but we will just do the same to them so its in their interest no to stick tariffs on our exports

You try telling that to the 'still want to stay' brigade.

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1 hour ago, rowlf said:

Obama was/is a fool. I can't say it any better than that. But I think your post means you can't answer my question.

So you criticise me for not answering but you avoid the question twice.

However to address your question.

1 hour ago, rowlf said:

So out with the old and in with the new.......................... Why do you think those 'ol' geezers' don't want, yet another layer of gov?

More importantly, you've just penetrated the crux of the mater. You needn't 'push' for Brexit, but you could accept it. You don't support the will of the majority. And if you don't think the EU doesn't benefit from the Brit's dissension on this Brexit matter, you must live on an alternate planet.

You didn't get what you wanted so you want to try again. If you lose the second referendum, will you try for a third?

And why don't you address the issue of why you can't survive without the EU?

The "old geezers" don't like the EU for a number of reasons in my opinion. Primarily it is immigration followed by a wistful view of recreating a 1950's Britain that has been wiped out by globalisation and the free movement of capital. Leaving the EU will do nothing to alter this. 

So you would accept something that you believe to be damaging to your country. I don't think so.

With regard to a third referendum, no not at all, as it would be pointless, as we would have left the EU.

Many of us will then campaign to rejoin. The young people of this country are overwhelmingly in favour of the EU so I think in the long run the UK will rejoin although on worse terms than we currently have.

Who says we can't survive outside the EU, I never have. I just believe we will be poorer and have less influence in the world.

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8 minutes ago, explorer1954 said:

Who says we can't survive outside the EU, I never have. I just believe we will be poorer and have less influence in the world.

I still don't understand how you will be poorer. It seems that you believe that no one will trade with you if you're not in the EU. The brutal reality is if you have merchandise of fair value, it will sell, if not, it won't.

I suppose 'influence' is a relative thing. It would seem that a country would have more influence/recognition when independently owned, rather than being a 'state' within a union.

Edited by rowlf

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It would be nice to think the Brexit experience will cure us of ever again trying to do government by plebiscite.
We have evolved a good system of representative democracy and most of our MPs were against Brexit, we should have taken note of that. Instead we had decision making by lies and tabloid propaganda.  
Supporters of EU membership in parliament have never been good at proclaiming its benefits. I don’t know why that is but I have long suspected it was fear of provoking the ire of the anti-EU Murdoch press.
It is interesting that some of the regions that voted strongly to leave (like Wales and the north-west) are the same ones that stand to lose the most in EU funding, I have heard no promises from Westminster to replace them. No doubt they all took that into account when they voted.

Edited by helen

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9 minutes ago, rowlf said:

I still don't understand how you will be poorer. It seems that you believe that no one will trade with you if you're not in the EU. The brutal reality is if you have merchandise of fair value, it will sell, if not, it won't.

I suppose 'influence' is a relative thing. It would seem that a country would have more influence/recognition when independently owned, rather than being a 'state' within a union.

Its pretty basic really if you erect both tariff and non tariff barriers with your biggest market you loose market share. All of our agreements with the rest of the world will lapse unless they agree to roll them over which at the moment does not seem likely. As we have a trade surplus with the USA do you think Trump won't put America first and seek to gain competitive advantage?

The EU is a far bigger and more powerful entity than the UK on its own. In the trade dispute over Bombardier it was the EU action that helped overturn the potential tariffs.

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