bratman

I'm sorry I must be stupid

101 posts in this topic

This evening's news is dominated by the unprecedented strain the NHS is under, particularly A&E. But Mrs May assured us all is well she's chipped in a few bob more so I must be stupid to believe the news. Of course the real answer is how you spend the money. For example the combined ambulance services wanted £26 million extra for vehicles and staff, they were told NO instead £600 million was spent on private ambulances. Virgincare has now cherry picked 40% of the profitable healthcare provision in my area leaving the NHS to provide the expensive acute, emergency and long term care. If anything goes wrong at the local Spire private hospital they quickly shunt it down the road to the NHS general hospital. Over Christmas and New Year agency nurses cost eye watering amounts because managers were not allowed to give out overtime shifts to NHS staff. We have 3 general hospitals in the Wirral and Chester area. They are all running at capacity, the solution, close 1 of them. Once again I must be stupid, why didn't I think of that. The final insult was the novel way to ease bed blocking, easy put the frail, elderly and confused old lady in her nightwear into a taxi and dump her on her doorstep at night without a key without telling her family. Now why didn't I think of that we'll soon see off all those geriatric bed blockers. I must be stupid.

Jon B.

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25 minutes ago, bratman said:

This evening's news is dominated by the unprecedented strain the NHS is under, particularly A&E. But Mrs May assured us all is well she's chipped in a few bob more so I must be stupid to believe the news. Of course the real answer is how you spend the money. For example the combined ambulance services wanted £26 million extra for vehicles and staff, they were told NO instead £600 million was spent on private ambulances. Virgincare has now cherry picked 40% of the profitable healthcare provision in my area leaving the NHS to provide the expensive acute, emergency and long term care. If anything goes wrong at the local Spire private hospital they quickly shunt it down the road to the NHS general hospital. Over Christmas and New Year agency nurses cost eye watering amounts because managers were not allowed to give out overtime shifts to NHS staff. We have 3 general hospitals in the Wirral and Chester area. They are all running at capacity, the solution, close 1 of them. Once again I must be stupid, why didn't I think of that. The final insult was the novel way to ease bed blocking, easy put the frail, elderly and confused old lady in her nightwear into a taxi and dump her on her doorstep at night without a key without telling her family. Now why didn't I think of that we'll soon see off all those geriatric bed blockers. I must be stupid.

Jon B.

I am afraid you are missing the point. This is part of a deliberate plan to privatise the NHS. You will note that more and more commentators are now talking about finding other methods of funding the NHS which is shorthand for privatisation and a service that will not be free at the point of delivery. 

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No I'm not missing the point I'm being sarcastic I know full well what the agenda is.

John B.

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21 hours ago, explorer1954 said:

I am afraid you are missing the point. This is part of a deliberate plan to privatise the NHS. You will note that more and more commentators are now talking about finding other methods of funding the NHS which is shorthand for privatisation and a service that will not be free at the point of delivery. 

 

20 hours ago, bratman said:

No I'm not missing the point I'm being sarcastic I know full well what the agenda is.

John B.

Do you actually think that anything in this world is free? What is their reason for wanting to privatize it after all these years?

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10 minutes ago, rowlf said:

 

Do you actually think that anything in this world is free? What is their reason for wanting to privatize it after all these years?

Probably the fact that a Labour government thought up and implemented it and a Tory party didn't. A bit like getting rid of Obama-care.

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2 hours ago, rowlf said:

 

Do you actually think that anything in this world is free? What is their reason for wanting to privatize it after all these years?

No of course it's not free. But the NHS is free at the point of delivery (that is how it is described in the UK) and paid for out of general taxation. I guess it depends if you think healthcare is a public service that should be available to all irrespective of income.

Why would they want to privatise it. Simple really it's an opportunity for a few people to make a lot of money. Look at Virgin they provide healthcare services at the moment routed through offshore tax havens.

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The Healthcare services is also paid for, when you get a prescription from the doctor and you are under retirement or do not come into the special condition clause as you have to pay about £7.50 per item or more.     

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Rowlf my colonial cousin, I know that you know the NHS is not free, we pay dearly for it and for better or worse it is available to everyone. What is wrong is how the money is spent. The Tories only see profit and loss and if somebody is not making a few bucks out of it, it's anathema to them. It was the same story with local authority housing Thatcher in an attempt to buy votes sold them off at up to 70% discount. The catch was the money made could not be used to build more social housing. She sold off all our utilities and transport for short term gain. Now I don't have a problem with making state owned entities efficient but they should stay state owned. That way we all benefit from any savings made. However there is nothing wrong in the maxim jobs before profit. It is all about fairness and balance.

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1 hour ago, bratman said:

 Now I don't have a problem with making state owned entities efficient but they should stay state owned. That way we all benefit from any savings made.

State owned and efficient is an oxymoron. And state owned entities 'spend', they never save.

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4 hours ago, rowlf said:

State owned and efficient is an oxymoron. And state owned entities 'spend', they never save.

Rubbish.

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8 hours ago, explorer1954 said:

No of course it's not free. But the NHS is free at the point of delivery (that is how it is described in the UK) and paid for out of general taxation. I guess it depends if you think healthcare is a public service that should be available to all irrespective of income.

Why would they want to privatise it. Simple really it's an opportunity for a few people to make a lot of money. Look at Virgin they provide healthcare services at the moment routed through offshore tax havens.

Like ! If you look at almost all of the privatization models around the world a few made a colossal profit (eg Russian Oligarchs) and countries lost state owned assets that should have been returning profits back to taxpayers. The neo liberal privatization model my country went through was an absolute rort. 

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8 hours ago, rowlf said:

State owned and efficient is an oxymoron. And state owned entities 'spend', they never save.

If that is true why does the USA as a nation spend almost twice what the UK does on healthcare as a proportion of GDP and have outcomes.that are no better or in many cases inferior.

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5 hours ago, explorer1954 said:

If that is true why does the USA as a nation spend almost twice what the UK does on healthcare as a proportion of GDP and have outcomes.that are no better or in many cases inferior.

You're right that we spend too much on healthcare. I suppose their are many reasons for that. The high cost of drugs, liability insurance for the medical profession, many others reasons........... I suppose the system is corrupt to a degree. But I feel we have the highest quality of healthcare in the world.......including those damned Norwegians! Because I'm over 65yo, I have Medicare, and I have issues with that.

As I've stated before, I have VA insurance also, which is gov owned and operated, and it leaves a lot to be desired. This what I base my concept of a gov run healthcare system. Their success rate is lower than the private care, and the employees treat you as if you're bothering them. Not many do this, but enough to get pissed. It has dramatically improved since Trump was elected. If I have to wait longer than a week or two to receive medical care, I can go to anyone that will accept the VA's payment. Some doctors would rather not do so, because of the paperwork and possibly a reduced maximum payment.

Contrary to what people think, no one goes without healthcare in the USA. I know this for fact. As a matter of fact, people with low incomes pay nothing for healthcare. And this kinda burns me. There are way too many people out there that could contribute to society, and try as best they can to have a vested interest in our society, but choose not to do so. And so, as always this is placed on the working man's shoulders. And this is the reason our healthcare is so expensive.

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16 hours ago, rowlf said:

State owned and efficient is an oxymoron. And state owned entities 'spend', they never save.

Well in the UK, the failing East Coast mainline railway providers were unable to return a profit and returned the franchises to the Government.  For several years, until the Government was able to identify a new franchisee, the state ran the railways.  Take a guess at which period was the only one when the railways operated at a profit?

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2 hours ago, rowlf said:

I know this for fact. As a matter of fact, people with low incomes pay nothing for healthcare. And this kinda burns me. There are way too many people out there that could contribute to society, and try as best they can to have a vested interest in our society, but choose not to do so. And so, as always this is placed on the working man's shoulders. And this is the reason our healthcare is so expensive.

Of course rowlf - people with low incomes pay nothing - and that's the real problem.  If the poor paid more, the richer would be able to pay less.  So the poor would be poorer (as they are paying more than now, for exactly what they get now) and the rich would be richer.

The reason the rich aren't richer is because of poor people.  If we want to make them (the rich) richer, the way to do it is to make the poor even poorer.

Really?  I bet you couldn't post something more stupid if you tried. 

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I feel certain that you, being such an intelligent person, will be able to tell us the answer to this riddle.

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5 minutes ago, macboatface said:

I feel certain that you, being such an intelligent person, will be able to tell us the answer to this riddle.

You need to look up the meaning of a riddle in the dictionary.  What rowlf said wasn't a riddle.  It was BS.

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No one I interested in privatising the NHS. Apart from being a great (but underfunded institution) it would be total political suicide for any government to wish to privatise it.

This is just another unjustified bit of scaremongering for the left wing in this country who profess to give to everyone everything whilst increasing the debt they will plunge this country inn yet again.

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11 minutes ago, Alteredbhoy said:

Well in the UK, the failing East Coast mainline railway providers were unable to return a profit and returned the franchises to the Government.  For several years, until the Government was able to identify a new franchisee, the state ran the railways.  Take a guess at which period was the only one when the railways operated at a profit?

Look what happened when the profitable state operator was replaced by Virgin and Stagecoach who promised a significant dividend to the government over the life of the franchise. 

The corrupt Tory party have agreed that the franchise will be terminated three years early, avoiding the embarrassment of another private firm handing back the keys to the government but forfeiting hundreds of millions in premiums due to the Treasury.

The took the profit in the early period and walk away when it's our turn. It makes my blood boil.

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3 minutes ago, makyfash said:

No one I interested in privatising the NHS. Apart from being a great (but underfunded institution) it would be total political suicide for any government to wish to privatise it.

This is just another unjustified bit of scaremongering for the left wing in this country who profess to give to everyone everything whilst increasing the debt they will plunge this country inn yet again.

Actually, I'm not sure I agree.  There are huge swathes of the NHS that have already been privatised or were never nationalised and for which there seems to be no appetite to nationalise.  

The medicines are all provided by private pharmaceutical companies.  The IT used is provided by companies.  The ambulances are commercially made vehicles.  the contents of the sandwiches that you can buy in hospitals are not made by the state but bought in.  A large proportion of the NHS is already provided by private private companies. 

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2 hours ago, rowlf said:

There are way too many people out there that could contribute to society, and try as best they can to have a vested interest in our society, but choose not to do so. And so, as always this is placed on the working man's shoulders. And this is the reason our healthcare is so expensive.

So are you saying that those that can't afford it should not have access to medical services as it puts your cost up?

I believe more than a quarter of U.S. adults struggle to pay their medical bills. This includes those who have insurance, whether independently or through an employer. In fact, medical debt is the No. 1 source of personal bankruptcy filings in the U.S., and in 2014, an estimated 40% of Americans racked up debt resulting from a medical issue.

Nobody in the UK becomes bankrupt because of medical expenses. 

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18 minutes ago, makyfash said:

No one I interested in privatising the NHS. Apart from being a great (but underfunded institution) it would be total political suicide for any government to wish to privatise it.

This is just another unjustified bit of scaremongering for the left wing in this country who profess to give to everyone everything whilst increasing the debt they will plunge this country inn yet again.

Jeremy Hunt co-authored a policy pamphlet that called for the NHS to be replaced by an insurance system.

The 2005 policy book, called Direct Democracy: An Agenda For A New Model Party, was a collection of writings authored by a group of Tory MPs.

The latest privatisation wheeze pushed by the Torys are Accountable Care Organisations. According to NHS England, commissioners will have “a contract with a single organisation for the great majority of health and care services and for population health in the area”. These services will be provided by a private company.

Looking at this import from America you see a conflict of interest between cost and quality is designed into ACOs: they keep a share of any underspends as a ‘bonus’ but are not penalised for service failure. This is the model that US insurance companies are pushing the government to adopt.

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1 hour ago, Alteredbhoy said:

Well in the UK, the failing East Coast mainline railway providers were unable to return a profit and returned the franchises to the Government.  For several years, until the Government was able to identify a new franchisee, the state ran the railways.  Take a guess at which period was the only one when the railways operated at a profit?

You'd pick and choose your facts ever since I've known you. I don't see any changes on the horizon.:58674be5c2392_EmojiSmiley-13:

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Firstly, contrary to belief the NHS is not free, that is why we pay National Insurance( unfortunately, the Government just thinks of it as another Tax), just think what private health care you could get for about £400 (what I used to pay). I do not want to get into politics, but one of the reasons the NHS is in Financial difficulties is the Private Public Partnership that Blair thought of, the Trust gets a nice new Hospital, but pays an absolute fortune for it. Then we have the Hospital Execs that get paid stupid amounts of money, because it is said "we need to pay, to get the best". Well given their performance, perhaps we would be better paying them a reasonable salary, lets face it running a hospital is not like running a chain of restaurants. I used to work for a US based Automotive Corporation in the UK, and their view was that they always promoted their top Executives from within, as nobody understood the Company from outside. The thing large Corporations and Governments do not understand "outsourcing" only works if the Company is better at the skill you are "outsourcing". My Company was always "outsourcing" work and then realising that is was effectively costing them more money, and it costs even more money to terminate the contract. With the Government it is even worse, a Minister thinks they can save money, but by the time the "Supplier" has failed the Minister has moved on. Look what is happening at the moment with Carillion at the moment. I have been reading a book about the privatisation of the railways, and if appears the costs rose appreciably when it was privatised, and then we lost a fortune on Railtrack. When I was working (I am now retired), if we wanted more money for a project we would always stop working on the critical Project so it was noticed, so I sometimes wonder if this is what the Trusts are doing at the moment.

As for the US verses UK schemes, the US System is not that great, it is fragmented as each Hospital is a private entity, I mean did anyone read the article about the Nurse that was killing OAPs, all the Hospital involved when they found out, was to release him (did not want the bad publicity), so that he could carry on his spree in another hospital. It appears with the US System, you spend a great deal of time trying to get the money back from the Health Insurer.  Rowlf I would be interested on your views, as I said I used to work for a US Company and went there a lot. The thing is with the NHS a lot depends which doctor you get, some are really good, some are useless. As seems to be the case with most things the useless ones seem to be the ones most appreciated.

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Thinking about "Carillion" going "legs up", if it happens this could cost the Government a fortune, not only all those projects that need bailing out, but also that big hole in their Pension Fund.

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1 hour ago, explorer1954 said:

Jeremy Hunt co-authored a policy pamphlet that called for the NHS to be replaced by an insurance system.

The 2005 policy book, called Direct Democracy: An Agenda For A New Model Party, was a collection of writings authored by a group of Tory MPs.

The latest privatisation wheeze pushed by the Torys are Accountable Care Organisations. According to NHS England, commissioners will have “a contract with a single organisation for the great majority of health and care services and for population health in the area”. These services will be provided by a private company.

Looking at this import from America you see a conflict of interest between cost and quality is designed into ACOs: they keep a share of any underspends as a ‘bonus’ but are not penalised for service failure. This is the model that US insurance companies are pushing the government to adopt.

If the Tories had won the Election with a big majority this might have happened, but given their current predicament I suspect this would be Political suicide as it would definitely be enough for Corbyn to get a majority and then the ACOs would be toast. I am not so sure that Jeremy Hunt won't be soon, he has just missed a bullet meant for him. 

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1 hour ago, rowlf said:

You'd pick and choose your facts ever since I've known you. I don't see any changes on the horizon.:58674be5c2392_EmojiSmiley-13:

rowlf, you've become a prime exponent of nonsense today.  You stated that state ownership and efficiency were an oxymoron, but when I give you an example where your statement is shown to be incorrect, then I am accused of being selective.

So you quote something as fact, which I can show is not true, but somehow it is my choice of example that is defective?

If you are going to make statements of fact based upon simply your massively hairy gut feeling, then don't complain when someone shows you up for talking out of your bowels.

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5 hours ago, rowlf said:

You're right that we spend too much on healthcare. I suppose their are many reasons for that. The high cost of drugs, liability insurance for the medical profession, many others reasons........... I suppose the system is corrupt to a degree. But I feel we have the highest quality of healthcare in the world.......including those damned Norwegians! Because I'm over 65yo, I have Medicare, and I have issues with that.

As I've stated before, I have VA insurance also, which is gov owned and operated, and it leaves a lot to be desired. This what I base my concept of a gov run healthcare system. Their success rate is lower than the private care, and the employees treat you as if you're bothering them. Not many do this, but enough to get pissed. It has dramatically improved since Trump was elected. If I have to wait longer than a week or two to receive medical care, I can go to anyone that will accept the VA's payment. Some doctors would rather not do so, because of the paperwork and possibly a reduced maximum payment.

Contrary to what people think, no one goes without healthcare in the USA. I know this for fact. As a matter of fact, people with low incomes pay nothing for healthcare. And this kinda burns me. There are way too many people out there that could contribute to society, and try as best they can to have a vested interest in our society, but choose not to do so. And so, as always this is placed on the working man's shoulders. And this is the reason our healthcare is so expensive.

No, your health care is so expensive, because they are all super rich corporations that are basically monopolies that can pay themselves fortunes, as we are all frightened of dying. It is a bit like in the UK with car insurance if you get your car fixed under insurance it is about twice as expensive as is if you pay for it yourself. I heard that quite a number of US firms could no longer fund health insurance for their employees. In the US arm of my company. in the 80's it was provided totally free, at the end of the 80's the employee had to pay a fixed amount and now it has been offloaded to the Unions. Also, from what I gather, accommodation and health care costs are separate, so in the case of a woman having a baby, the health insurance covers the delivery, but the stay in hospital is charged separately. A guy in one of our US Suppliers got charged $3000 for his wife's stay in hospital whilst she had a baby (the medical procedures were covered by insurance). A lot of our issues are with the "Self Employed" not paying proper National Insurance contributions.

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Don't know where you all live but in the Southampton area the doctors surgeries and hospitals are full of Romanians, Poles and Bulgarians.

This surely does not help the situation. Not to mention health tourists. I am not racist just stating a fact.

 

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2 hours ago, dinger said:

Don't know where you all live but in the Southampton area the doctors surgeries and hospitals are full of Romanians, Poles and Bulgarians.

This surely does not help the situation. Not to mention health tourists. I am not racist just stating a fact.

 

Yes, thank goodness for all the Polish, Bulgarian and Romanian health workers.  Without them the NHS would have ground to a halt years ago.

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3 hours ago, Alteredbhoy said:

rowlf, you've become a prime exponent of nonsense today.  You stated that state ownership and efficiency were an oxymoron, but when I give you an example where your statement is shown to be incorrect, then I am accused of being selective.

So you quote something as fact, which I can show is not true, but somehow it is my choice of example that is defective?

If you are going to make statements of fact based upon simply your massively hairy gut feeling, then don't complain when someone shows you up for talking out of your bowels.

Mel, I think nonsense is a relative term. In fact I know it is. You are selective, you've always been, so let it rest.

There are facts, then there are alternate facts. You know this very well.

Massively hairy gut...........you should be ashamed................And I only talk out of my arse with certain people.

 

 

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11 minutes ago, Alteredbhoy said:

Yes, thank goodness for all the Polish, Bulgarian and Romanian health workers.  Without them the NHS would have ground to a halt years ago.

Well, at least somebody is working.

 

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6 hours ago, Alteredbhoy said:

You need to look up the meaning of a riddle in the dictionary.  What rowlf said wasn't a riddle.  It was BS.

Very much as you spout, then?

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13 minutes ago, rowlf said:

Mel, I think nonsense is a relative term. In fact I know it is. You are selective, you've always been, so let it rest.

There are facts, then there are alternate facts. You know this very well.

Massively hairy gut...........you should be ashamed................And I only talk out of my arse with certain people.

 

 

No rowlf.  Your unpleasant little brother accused me of being a Welsh pig farmer called Gary.  Now you accuse me of being a photographer from Clacton called Mel.  Why can't you just accept that people disagree with you because you post nonsensical rubbish and not as some sort of multi-account conspiracy such as your kid bro' is clearly doing?

As for facts and alternative facts, that it is utter rubbish.  You have facts and the alternative to fact is fiction, which is falsehood.  When facts contradict each other, it is because one of them is not true.

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29 minutes ago, Alteredbhoy said:

Yes, thank goodness for all the Polish, Bulgarian and Romanian health workers.  Without them the NHS would have ground to a halt years ago.

 

1 minute ago, Alteredbhoy said:

No rowlf.  Your unpleasant little brother accused me of being a Welsh pig farmer called Gary.  Now you accuse me of being a photographer from Clacton called Mel.  Why can't you just accept that people disagree with you because you post nonsensical rubbish and not as some sort of multi-account conspiracy such as your kid bro' is clearly doing?

As for facts and alternative facts, that it is utter rubbish.  You have facts and the alternative to fact is fiction, which is falsehood.  When facts contradict each other, it is because one of them is not true.

Again, you are speaking of yourself?

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Just now, Alteredbhoy said:

No rowlf.  Your unpleasant little brother accused me of being a Welsh pig farmer called Gary.  Now you accuse me of being a photographer from Clacton called Mel.  Why can't you just accept that people disagree with you because you post nonsensical rubbish and not as some sort of multi-account conspiracy such as your kid bro' is clearly doing?

As for facts and alternative facts, that it is utter rubbish.  You have facts and the alternative to fact is fiction, which is falsehood.  When facts contradict each other, it is because one of them is not true.

Hmm....you're in a randy mood tonight. Must be down with that dreadful Hawaiian disease 'lackanooky'.

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31 minutes ago, Alteredbhoy said:

Yes, thank goodness for all the Polish, Bulgarian and Romanian health workers.  Without them the NHS would have ground to a halt years ago.

A bit behind the times aren't you? I think you'll find that the immigrants from the West Indies kept the NHS afloat, as they did with the transport system and other menial jobs.

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1 minute ago, macboatface said:

A bit behind the times aren't you? I think you'll find that the immigrants from the West Indies kept the NHS afloat, as they did with the transport system and other menial jobs.

I think you'll find Boatie, that the immigrants from the Carribean who worked in the NHS and transport system came to the UK 40 years ago.  The most recent migrant workers to our NHS have come from Eastern Europe.

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5 minutes ago, Alteredbhoy said:

I think you'll find Boatie, that the immigrants from the Carribean who worked in the NHS and transport system came to the UK 40 years ago.  The most recent migrant workers to our NHS have come from Eastern Europe.

 

44 minutes ago, Alteredbhoy said:

Yes, thank goodness for all the Polish, Bulgarian and Romanian health workers.  Without them the NHS would have ground to a halt years ago.

Make your mind up, Piggy. You said "years ago". Perhaps you might explain how long you mean by 'years ago'.

I hope you have more success with pigs than you do on these forums.

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14 hours ago, ruby said:

If the Tories had won the Election with a big majority this might have happened, but given their current predicament I suspect this would be Political suicide as it would definitely be enough for Corbyn to get a majority and then the ACOs would be toast. I am not so sure that Jeremy Hunt won't be soon, he has just missed a bullet meant for him. 

Its already happening.  Health service professionals have launched a judicial review against NHS England over its draft national accountable care contract which has been given permission to proceed.

In Yorkshire, Scarborough & Ryedale CCG have put a £1.3bn Multi Speciality Community Partner  (MCP) contract up for tender.

This was the biggest NHS tender but it has recently been trumped by the Manchester tender for a £6bn contract for a ‘local care organisation’, an ACO. Manchester GP practices are seeking partners to form an MCP in order to bid.

An MCP is planned for Norwich. Like many larger MCPs, it will use ‘capitated’ or global payments, which are fixed payments to providers – a cap on care. 

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